Representing the latest in conversation from down under, Interviews Editor, Andrew Irvin chats with Jonathon Saunders to discuss Zero Point, released through Wild North Comics in Darwin, Australia!
COMIC BOOK YETI: Jonathan, thank you for joining me in the Yeti Cave today. How’s everything going up in Darwin?
JONATHON SAUNDERS: Things are alright up here, if a bit warm! Getting close to the build up here, hopefully we get some rain cause it’s quite dry at the moment.
CBY: We just had a good drenching here in Melbourne. Given my recent move to Australia, I’d like to first make an acknowledgement that I now reside on the unceded lands of the Wurundjeri Woi Wurrung people of the Kulin nation. I know from researching your work you’ve mentioned belonging to the Woppaburra people of the Kanomie clan of Keppel Island in what is now Queensland. Are there elders to whom you would like to pay respect in introducing your work? Who has inspired you in your journey as an artist along the way?
JS: While I am from the Woppanurra clan, I was born, and grew up here in Darwin, so I never met any elders from my homeland. I will pay my respect to my Auntie Justine Saunders, she was a very prominent Indigenous actor and a leading Indigenous pioneer in the performing arts. I always got a kick out of seeing her on TV!
CBY: Capturing cross-cultural interactions and experience is a very present element of Zero Point, and alongside the cultural foundations of your work, what creative inspirations have been central to the cultivation of your taste and aesthetic as a comic creator? I know you’ve mentioned Action Comics #1 for pacing, and Alan Moore and Frank Miller as influences on this graphic novel, and the influence of Akira Toriyama (RIP) clearly permeates. Building upon those references, what else did you grow up enjoying? What key points of relatability have informed your approach to Zero-Point?
JS: Action Comics #1 pacing was a big help for my webcomic Astounding Tales of Hero Fiction (Zero-Point #0 on the left) as this was the first comic featuring Zero-Point, Rand and Wing Commander. Jerry and Joe only had 14 pages to introduce Superman to the world, and they didn’t waste a single panel! I didn’t want to waste the readers time with an origin story, and just jumped straight into the action, introducing the world of Zero-Point. I think more creators should read and take notes on how the Golden Age guys wrote comics.
Too often in comics by the big two, stories are needlessly dragged out so that they can fit in a trade paperback without taking into consideration the story or pacing. When it comes to Western comic books, Moore and Miller are my biggest inspirations, as well as Busiek and his underrated Superman: Secret Identity (image right), which really delved deep into the themes of secret identities, the nature of heroism, and the intersection of ordinary life with extraordinary abilities as well as looking at Government surveillance and control as well as ethical dilemmas of the US Government using superhuman agents. I was also inspired by Darwyn Cooke’s The New Frontier, which is a love letter to Silver Age DC comics, while exploring themes of societal change and the evolution of superheroes of the post-war era, a great mix of the real world history and capes and tights.
When it comes to Eastern comics, its clear to see the Dragon Ball influence in my art, like a lot of guy my age, I got introduced to DBZ in the late 90’s thanks to the anime, when I read the manga later, I realised why Toriyama was held in such high regard as a comic manga artist; he is up there with Kirby and Ditko when it comes to action and panel-by-panel layout and storytelling (image left).
Neon Genesis Evangelion was a big influence growing up as well in the late 90’s, I was about 13 or 14 when I watched the series on SBS, as a teen I liked the themes of identity and self-discovery mixed in with the great animation and mix of sci-fi, religious and mythological imagery. Otomo Katsuhiro (Akira, Dōmu) is another big influence, especially in the background art department. I also love Shirow Masamune’s Ghost in the Shell (image right) and Appleseed, Masamune is great at creating worlds with their own complex geopolitical landscapes and culture and populating them with fun characters. Wing Commander/Lisa Cartwright has a bit of Motoko Kusanagi in her.
I also was a gamer growing up, I loved games like the Metal Gear Solid series, Splinter Cell, Hitman, Deus Ex, the Jedi Knight series, Mil-sim (military simulator) shooters and stealth games, as well as growing up on a healthy diet of 80’s and 90’s action films and political thrillers like Patriot Games and The Siege. My work clearly has a very macho sensibility to it!
This all helped in shaping Zero-Point, as it is a love letter to all this, and most importantly, I am creating the kind of comic I would’ve loved to read as a teenager (as well as an adult), and it’s always great when I see kids and their dads say how they love the web series or comic.
CBY: I think we shared a very similar experience of the Japanese media in the 80/90's zeitgeist that made it to the English market before the turn of the century. While I was a Nintendo kid, my friends who had Playstations were on the Metal Gear/Splinter Cell kick, so I'm right there with you. Back to your work, I read your National Film and Sound Archive of Australia interview with Heather Gill, which highlights the role of your collaborators, including your co-writer, Phil Tarl Denson, and Tim Parish, who runs Zero-Point publisher, Wild North Comics. Can you tell us a bit about how the journey towards bringing Zero-Point to market started? Now that you’re years into building this world, do you have an idea of how it might conclude, or what sort of story arcs are yet to unfold?
JS: I can’t remember when, but I think it was around 2013 or 2014 when I first met Timothy Parish at an art exhibition, back when I was making stencil art. I had finished my pages for Bartkira! and was halfway through finishing the first part of Astounding Tales of Hero Fiction. I met Phil Denson around the same time, and it was great to have friends that were into comics like me. Tim and Phil were also film makers, so it was great to talk about films as I had just started animating at that point. It was around 2015 or 2016 when Tim proposed to publish Astounding Tales of Hero Fiction through his company Undergrowth and to do a pop up show as part of the Darwin international Film Festival. While I had done some small animations featuring Zero-Point before, this was the first real step in bringing Zero-Point into the world of animation by writing a script for an animated short, as well as storyboarding the whole thing for the exhibition. That opening night, we had local actors do a live reading with a live music performance, this was ground zero (no pun intended) for Zero-Point Season Zero. Later that year we saw Screen Australia’s Black Space webs series initiative and decided to go for it. I spent two weeks writing out outlines, scripts and character bios with Phil and Tim for the application. One big change from Astounding Tales to Zero-Point Season Zero was AFECO (Australian Federal Extra-Normal Civil Operatives), in the web comic, they are an antagonists force since Zero-Point was a vigilante, for the web series, we changed it so Zero-Point was working with them.
A lot has changed from web comic, to animated web series and now comic book. The key themes about great power, and the ethical dilemmas to use it responsibly, Government surveillance and control and examining the hero's journey are still the same however. I’ve always known how the series will end since I first started with Astounding Tales of Hero Fiction, with Kyle confronting his fathers killer and uncovering a great conspiracy, but part of the fun now is figuring out all the twists and turns to get there.
CBY: The evolution across media that you experienced is a fascinating process to unpack further below (and I've been writing for Comic Book Yeti long enough that I certainly don't believe that pun was unintended). You’ve mentioned your digital illustration process began over a decade ago. What sort of tools and techniques have become part of your workflow? How has your process changed with technology that’s been introduced, and are there any tools, software, or methods that you’d like to try out or make greater use of that have emerged in recent years?
JS: I’ve been using Clip Studio Paint for about 12 years now, back when it was called Manga Studio. One of the reasons I use CSP, is due to the fact it’s a great all in one program for making comics, and it allows pencil, ink colour and letter your comic, when you place panels down, they are contained to their own layer structure, making it easier to keep things neat and tidy. One of my favorite features of CSP is the perspective guides. Back when I made stencil art, I would sketch out layouts for a stencil, I would have to draw up all the perspective lines and tape vanishing points on the edge of my drawing board, which made things a bit cumbersome. With CSP, I can set up a perspective on a separate layer, and my lines will always stick to the correct vanishing point, and I can toggle this on and off if I need to draw in more natural looking lines. CSP also ‘feels’ really good to draw with, its pencil and pen tools are the next best thing to actually drawing on pen and paper. Though I have thought about printing my penciled pages out on A3 bristol board and inking by hand again.
When it comes to animation, I mainly use Toon Boom Harmony, which was used for the production of Zero-Point Season Zero. It’s a really great all in one program, allowing for both vector and bitmap drawing, frame-by-frame and rigged based animation. I also really like TVPaint, it's a frame-by-frame bitmap based program solely focused for 2D animation. A few years ago, Clip Studio Paint added an animation feature to their software, and recently I have been using that for a few client animation projects and a short I am working on.
CBY: For our readers who are unaware, Zero-Point has also been released as an episodic animated series (currently available at zero-point.tv/). Dozens of people contributed to the production process,made in association with Undegrowth Productions and Thomas Street Productions, with support of Screen Australia funding through Screen Territory, an initiative of the Northern Territory Government. Can you share with our readers what went into the process of animating the series, and what additional considerations you needed to make when working with creative collaborators, as opposed to creating comic titles as a sole creator?
JS: Since other people from Poke the Bear Studio were going to animate my characters, I made character sheets for every major character, to help the animators best emulate my style (image left). I also did the
background layouts for the background artists to use, and I worked closely with animation Director Guy Jamieson providing corrections and animation notes. One of the great things about working with other people on your project is getting insight on your characters you never thought of before. Ebony McGuire, the voice of Lisa Cartwright/Wing Commander said to me during the recording session that she liked what I did with Lisa, that in uniform she is very serious as a Commanding AFECO officer, and had a no nonsense attitude, but when she’s alone with Kyle she can step back and let him ‘wear the pants’ so to speak in their relationship, and can be more feminine and playful. This was something I didn’t consciously think about when writing the script, so of course I told Ebony that’s exactly what I intended! Ever since then, I made sure to show that Lisa only shows that side to Kyle. Another aspect of having collaborators is how they interpret your characters in animation. My style for the web comic and character sheets had a lot of hard edges and angular, the animators tended to round things out, which I then incorporated into my current style as well. One animator changed how I drew Samson without his mask. In my original character sheet, Samson had more of a brutish look, animator Neeshma made him look more like a fallen prince, which fit Steven Oliver’s dramatic portrayal of the character perfectly. The voice cast have also impacted how I write the characters now, Mark Cole Smith is what I hear in my head when I write dialogue for Zero-Point.
Another consideration when working on a collaboration is perfect is the enemy of good. While I would’ve loved for Season Zero to look like an 1980’s anime OVA, the budget wasn’t there, so I had to make a lot of concessions, one of which was to have it visually look more stylized like a Ruby-Spears production or like a Hanna-Barbera action cartoon. These limitations force you to be more creative.
CBY: At Supanova Melbourne (where I had the pleasure of meeting Tim Parish at the Wild North booth) a question I asked the various participants at might be appropriate here as well - what do you think makes Australia comics (and creative media, more broadly) distinct in character? Zero Point: Origins, with its locales, slang, and topical themes, all very much pinpoints its cultural bearings. What perspectives can be brought to the forefront in the global comic market that currently don’t get enough attention?
JS: I think what makes Australian media have that Australian feel is something inherent in the country. Whenever Australian creators move out of Australia and make movies, comics, animation in another country, it loses its ‘Ozziness’. The first two Mad Max films were Ozploitation at its finest, the third felt a bit more Hollywood, and while I enjoyed Fury Road, it was geared to a wider, international audience (probably at the behest of Warner Bros.). I think it’s because we are so isolated from our closest allies (America and England), yet we are a crucial player in Asian-Pacific geopolitics, not to mention we are a ‘Middle Power’, where we have some sway on the global stage, but nothing compared to our American mates. Because of this tyranny of distance (both physically and socially) a lot of Australian stories have a strong theme of camaraderie and resilience in the face of adversity. I think also since we are a ‘young’ country (in terms of British Colonisation at least), our stories focus on societal changes and exploring these structures, and how they impact people, including Indigenous culture and struggles. All these help make Australian media, uniquely Australian
CBY: That is a really astute summary of the geopolitical positioning as I've come to understand it, and I appreciate the added perspective you've been willing to share. Without giving too much away, Zero-Point: Origins involves a fictionalized version of the very real conflicts faced in East Timor. I’ve had colleagues whose families were involved in the fight for independence and the reconstruction efforts, and the situation around self-determination garnered a unique response from the Australian government, particularly in comparison to the ongoing Indonesian occupation of West Papua, and the various diplomatic relationships Australia holds with other Pacific Island countries. When utilizing geo-politics from reality in crafting your fiction, what sort of commentary do you want to make sure shines through and rings true with your audience?
JS: It was a commentary that Australia always sends troops to fight beyond its borders. Australian soldiers always seem to be called up to fight for others, starting with the Boer War, and this has shaped a part of our national identity (for better or worse) to fight and die in another's country.
I remember the 1999 Crisis growing up, and remember watching on the news about the various updates on the INTERFET peacekeeping missions, I felt it would be interesting to use that as a basis for a fictional conflict, write what you know, as the saying goes. But I also think that referencing historical events in a story makes it more interesting for the audience, not to mention educational. I always like finding out that an event or part of a story was based on something that actually happened, which makes me want to learn more about it.
CBY: Yeah, defense pacts and allied forces are definitely baked into the geopolitics of the region, both inclusive of Australia and the Oceania region. I’ve spent the last couple years working with indigenous creatives in Fiji and the Marshall Islands on building narrative worlds to center around characters from the Pacific (including a title focusing on post-human emergence). As such, I’m curious as to what sort of advice might you have to the Pacific indigenous creative community based upon your work in Australia? How can the various counter-colonial narratives be built in concert, and what sort of opportunities for bridging First Nations creative efforts with those in the Pacific might you like to see cultivated in the future?
JS: My advice is to write engaging, cool, fun characters that just happen to be Fiji and Marshall Islanders, and not just Fiji and Marshall Island characters. People like a character because of what they do, or what they want, or how they deal with adversity. I feel there is too much focus now in comics and films about what skin colour a character has, and not why we should care about them. Diversity is now just a checklist, not as an organic process of creating a story. Write a story that would resonate with you, as a reader, don’t try to chase trends and write for others. Be true to yourself, and use elements from your own life, community and history and build upon that.
One of the great things about making comics today is that there is no barrier to getting your work out there, you can put your work out on social media, or your own website and build an audience, you're not constrained by having to sign up with a publisher. Comics have the lowest barrier to entry, you just need a pen/pencil and paper. You can literally be stranded on a desert island and still make a comic! I definitely want to see what kind of comics and stories come out of the Pacific.
CBY: Words of wisdom that I look forward to sharing with my creative colleagues across the region! So you’ve had the opportunity to work with a range of creators across the country on building a well-considered, grounded narrative world, despite the presence of post-humans with superpowers. How would you like to see Zero-Point and your body of work resonate beyond Australia? Is there anyone from the international comics community you’d be interested in collaborating with on anything (in general, or in particular)?
JS: I would love to see how others outside of Australia react to Zero-Point, both the comic and the animated web series. Superheroes in general tend to be very American-centric (which makes sense considering their origin), so I personally find it interesting to see other nations take on the genre. Zero-Point takes some pages out of Tom Clancy with its more political thriller style, which I hope readers find engaging, and a breath of fresh air in the sometimes over-saturated superhero market! One day I’d like to attend Comiket, the grassroot fans comic convention in Japan, and maybe even make a submission to Silent Manga Audition.
CBY: For anyone who reads the article above, I think it's clear what influences you evoke with your work, and I think your voicing is really unique, so anyone with the slightest inclination to pick up a super-powered comic would gain from adding this to their reading. Customarily, these interviews end with an opportunity to share any comics or other creative work beyond the title at-hand. Apart from the influences on Zero Point, what’s been catching your attention and inspiring you lately?
JS: A comic I’ve been reading lately is Chainsaw Man, I am in awe of Tatsuki Fujimoto's skills not only as an artist, but as a writer. He constructed this crazy world, with engaging flawed characters you can’t help but love with an out-there dark fantasy story with twists and turns. I would recommend this even if you aren’t a manga reader. I’ve also been reading E. E. Smith’s Grey Lensman book, it’s the sequel to Galactic Patrol. Very fun, space opera sci-fi, and it’s clear to see how E.E. Smith’s work would and stories influence later sci-fi series like Green Lantern, Star Trek and Star Wars. I've also been watching Spicy City, the adult animated erotic cyberpunk television series created by Ralph Bakshi. I wish there were more adult animated series like this, and not more Rick and Morty clones.
CBY: Jonathan, thanks again for joining us, and for all the fantastic insight. If you’ve got additional portfolio, publication, and social media links to share, now is the time and place. We look forward to seeing what else you come up with next!
JS: You can check out my art at:
Get my comics at:
Watch Zero-Point Season Zero at:
Or watch my other animations here:
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