Released in an English edition earlier this year through Fairsquare Comics, Interviews Editor Andrew Irvin chats with the Morissette-Phan sibling duo to delve into the themes of their family, as Yasmine, her mother, and grandmother all give voice to their lived experiences over generations of monumental change.
COMIC BOOK YETI: Djibril and Yasmine, it’s our pleasure to welcome you into the Yeti Cave today! Thank you for joining us to discuss Khiêm. How are things going in Quebec?
DJIBRIL CHU’O’NG MORISSETTE-PHAN: Thank you for having us! Things are great here in Québec!
CBY: Glad to hear! It was timely reading your comic, as I’m finally visiting Montreal for the first time in a week, and this certainly helped me establish a sense of place from your perspective. Place and perspective are two of the strongest themes that come through in Khiêm. Both individually, and as a family, what other values and themes went into the studied self-reflection that yielded such a dense and textured story over ~200 pages?
YASMINE TRINH MORISSETTE-PHAN: I think the overarching theme in Khiêm would have to be identity. In the end, the whole purpose of digging into the past and to understand the trajectories of our ancestors is to be able to understand who I am now and to understand what my identity is composed of. Under the umbrella term of Identity, I was able to explore facets of it like womanhood and gender roles, cultural mixity and its colonial dualities, family and relationships. And came with that the theme of transmission, more specifically the duty and responsibility to transmit our heritage once we are aware of our identity.
CBY: So, for others in our predominantly English-speaking audience, it's my understanding “khiêm” means “modesty” in Vietnamese. For those who have yet to read this graphic novel, it is also the name of your grandmother, the titular character whose story opens the book. What sort of connotations does the name have in Vietnamese that may not readily be apparent to an English audience, and in what ways does it embody how you recall and represent your grandmother?
YTPM: It would be hard for me to answer the question because I do not speak Vietnamese, which means I don’t know what connotations the word khiêm could have. What my mother told me is that khiêm means something like humility, conciliation, and modesty. It’s true that I have always imagined my grandmother somewhat modest and humble but I mostly pictured her as a strong and independent woman who had to make difficult choices because of her situation. I don’t think the mental image I have of her is built upon the meaning of her name but more upon the decisions she made and the values she transmitted to my mother.
CBY: Ah, certainly - that experience with her would override other connotations at a personal level. In Trang’s chapters, you also introduce the term phông as an insult that cuts at her core identity. There are a number of different reflections on sources of shame around the structural indignities of poverty, corruption, and both the colonialism and broader patriarchy that exacerbate these issues. Culture shock, miscommunication, and unease are communicated through both the imagery and the unfolding story, so how can you unpack the role they play within each chapter?
YTPM: Yes, shame is an omnipresent theme that runs throughout the story. It is part of our heritage and the way it is passed on from one character to the next speaks of the reality of generational trauma. For instance, for me to have been born in the middle class rather than a poorer one does not absolve me of experiencing the shame that my grandmother and mother felt when they needed to beg for people’s help and money. This shame was passed on to me through my education, which is not a bad thing because it makes me aware of my privilege and it makes me responsible to use my privileges with humility.
Does that answer the question?
DCMP: I would also add that shame was one of the primary themes explored in our mom’s chapter and we really wanted to be able to communicate that feeling to the reader through the imagery. I’m glad you picked up on it! As a visual storyteller, when I look back at the book a couple of years later (the original French version came out in 2020), I feel like that section is the most effective at blending the story and the visuals, really justifying the choice of telling our story in the comic format.
CBY: That definitely cuts to the core of the things, for sure. While some of the story's subject matter was quite jarring, especially considering its grounded, biographical nature, it was incredibly adept at capturing the starkly different experiences - and resultant voices - of three generations of your family. How was the process of writing and eliciting these narratives different in each instance, as far as recording interviews, anecdotes, etc.? How did you collaborate within your family?
YTPM: The process of writing was really an exercise of empathy. For each character I’d try to put myself in their shoes and wonder, what as a mother would I want my child to remember from me? For my grandmother, I had access to her memoir translated from Vietnamese to French by my mom. For my mother, we have a good relationship so it was simple to set up a few interviews. You can imagine that these were not light conversations since part of the process was to uncover sources of trauma, but I am so happy to have gone through that journey with her and I think it even brought us closer together. As for me, the difficult part was not to access information, but rather to give my voice a purpose after learning about all the sacrifices Khiêm and my mother had to make for me to be me today. My brother helped me a lot for this last chapter, we discussed what we felt knowing what we now knew.
Our mother also brought me and my brother to Vietnam and to California to meet members of the family that we hadn’t met before. We had a series of interviews that we documented thoroughly, helping me diversify the points of view within the narrative.
The collaboration within the family was effortless and I have to admit it was my favorite part of the project.
CBY: There was one line that stuck with me; “it’s superficial to accuse a people for what their state inscribes in their history.” This was mentioned in the context of confronting the legacy of French colonialism when Trang goes to Paris in 1992. Now, 32 years later, France is the only remaining colonial power in both name and deed. As we look at the ongoing Kanak independence movement in New Caledonia, and the role of France in perpetuating power imbalances, particularly from a position in a nation - Canada - that long ago shirked off its colonial governance in favor of settler expansionism that marginalized the First Nations, following your labor of love in unpacking the intergenerational trauma that resulted from these systems, what sort of messages (if any) do you have for our audience around the disruption and trauma caused by geopolitical power imbalances?
YTPM: This is a tough question, because geopolitical power imbalances are at the bottom of so much suffering in the world, and even if my mother and my grandmother have taught us that love and peace are the only tools we need to move forward, anger and shame are realities we cannot ignore. My mother would probably be better than me at answering this question, because she is the one that had to go through the physical and cultural uprooting. She is the one whose point of view on her own Vietnamese identity was challenged by the welcoming, yet colonial, host country of Canada. How do you process realizing that your “saviors” are descendants from the same colonial force that reduced your ancestors to slavery in rubber plantations? I guess the best I was taught to do was to forgive the people, but never forget the history. This whole book is about the duty to remember and to pass on, and I think that as a Canadian, it is essential for us to remember the shameful things we have done to others in the past to enjoy our socioeconomic privileges today. However, I am not informed enough about the Kanak independence movement to pronounce myself specifically on the issue.
CBY: I wouldn't expect anyone outside the Pacific to be mired in the details, and you've definitely highlighted the broader imbalances at the core of all colonialism (French, or otherwise). Another line I absolutely loved was, “I never learned to speak Vietnamese, but I did learn to eat Vietnamese.” Let’s switch gears a bit from the overtly political to one of the more enjoyable (and no less important) aspects of global cultural exchange; cuisine at home and abroad, since it’s a particular focus of yours, Yasmine. Growing up in a Canadian culinary space, what do you appreciate from growing up there, and what does it make you appreciate all the more about the nuances of Vietnamese food? What dishes do you think our audience should seek out, based upon your personal experience and preferences?
YTPM: Saying that I like food would be an understatement. I am passionate about all things related to ingredients. I’ve been working in the restaurant industry for twelve years now and I’m currently a bar chef at Taverne Atlantic in Montreal. What I find the most interesting about growing up in a Canadian culinary space, especially in Québec, is that we really get a sense of the seasons that pass. There are also seasons for different ingredients in Vietnam but things grow all year round over there. In Québec, the winters are harsh and availability of fresh produce becomes scarce. The organization and the planification of a menu for a restaurant or a bar is specific to the territory it belongs to. Vietnamese food is amazing, it’s the champion of soups and fresh herbs. The restaurant industry in Vietnam is very different from here, the typical model being many little shops, each specialized in one or two dishes that require a lot of prep time. Here, consumers like to sit in one place and have all the choices. I could go on about food forever so I’ll stop here. But if any of you readers go to Vietnam, don’t skip the snails.
CBY: This story took me a few sittings, interspersed with other reading, to fully digest, unlike some lighter - usually fully fictitious - fare that I can whip through without so much evocation and reflection. Having an international, multi-ethnic family and the cross-cultural complications, opportunities, and experiences it may entail is something not every story embodies. Much mainstream media depicts international travel as a plot device (budgets be damned). The reality of trying to connect with people and places of meaning is an incredibly complicated exercise that you tackle brilliantly in Khiêm with lines such as, “I like humanity. Sometimes, I’m ashamed of it but I’m still part of it and I know that people do what they can with what they have.” Is there any place you long to return to, and where next in the world would you like to experience?
YTPM: I have an ambivalent relationship with traveling. I’ve traveled a lot in the past and each time I take a plane, it triggers my eco-conscience. Also, being a tourist is awkward, and I try my best to be respectful of those who welcome us, but sometimes, traveling can really remind you of the geopolitical imbalances that we spoke about earlier. That being said, I’ve had the chance to see many places that taught me about how different others can live. The most disorienting experience I had was when I went to Kuwait with my mother in 2023. Not only is it a Muslim country, but its economy is also based on petroleum and just these two factors shaped the country in ways I did not imagine. Of course, I’d go back to Vietnam in a heartbeat. I want to learn the language to be able to keep those links with the family without depending on my mother so much. And finally, if I had to choose a new place to discover, I’d have to say New Orleans. The food and drinks culture over there is so dynamic, and the history seems rich and unique.
CBY: I feel the same way about flying, and I've similarly heard wonderful things about the unique character of New Orleans. The Vietnam you described is similar to that of one of my classmates, who was discussing prospects for work back there within the government, academia, and development system. Work like Khiêm is instrumental for communicating complex systemic issues within the Vietnamese diaspora (and diasporic populations dealing with the wake of post-colonial society, more broadly). I think you both brilliantly presented an existence between spaces I talk about often with the rest of my family. As creative professionals reflecting on the cultural character of what it means to be tied to a place through various intersecting dimensions, what resonates across the diaspora as identifiably Vietnamese in ways that displacement hasn’t been able to disrupt?
YTPM: In answering this question, I can only speak of my own experience and I don’t really know how the rest of the diaspora lives across the globe. First, I’m guessing that the Vietnamese diasporic identity is different for everyone depending on their perception of the motherland. People fled the country for different reasons: some had everything to lose, some had nothing to lose, and perceiving Vietnam as a place you feared or a place you loved has an impact on what you perpetuate in the diaspora. However, I’ve noticed some patterns in different Vietnamese communities I’ve come across. The food is important. Everywhere there are Vietnamese people, you will find Vietnamese restaurants. Is it because the food is absolutely delicious? Is it because the vietnamese economy is largely informal and it yields a very entrepreneurial population? This would make a good research topic. The celebration of the Têt is also important for me and I think it is for others in the diaspora as well. I celebrate it with my family, but I also celebrate it with my friends every year.
CBY: I love the space provided for Prof. Goscha’s afterword, acknowledgements, the bibliography, and your family photos in the publication. One of the photos is of your mother at the release of L’eau de la liberté, which reminded me to ask, what was the process of pitching this to publishers like? Did the arrangement with Fairsquare Comics for publication of this graphic novel precede the work on it, and how’d you end up with Nikki San Pedro and Fabrice Sapolsky involved in the adaptation and editing process?
DCMP: The original French version of the book, which came out in November of 2020, was published by Glénat Québec. Rebecca Lecours was our editor on the project and she’s the one who initially reached out to me to collaborate. At the time, I hadn’t published a lot in Québec, working mostly in the American market, so it seemed like a perfect opportunity to both contribute to the local cultural landscape and tell a deeply personal story. At that point, I think my mom had started translating some of the memoirs left by my grandmother but the idea for the book had yet to take shape. After discussing it with my sister, we decided to work together on it, her as the writer, and me as the illustrator. The book finally came out in 2020 in the midst of the pandemic but it nonetheless got a very good reception here in Québec. Fairsquare Comics only came into the picture a couple of years later. I’ve known Fabrice for a while now. I think we met around 2014-2015, before he founded F2. Although the idea of translating the book to English was always there, mostly so that the members of our family who don’t speak French could read it, it’s only around 2023 that the collaboration with F2 happened. Ultimately, I think the timing worked out great and I don’t think we could have found a better publisher for the American market. I feel like Khiêm is a perfect fit within the F2 editorial mission.
CBY: Thanks for the whole background, Djibril. Now, I know we’ve delved into the specifics of a variety of topics within the book, and I tried not to drop too many spoilers, so to give everyone else something to think about once they’ve checked out Khiêm, what creative work unrelated to this comic have you been enjoying lately? What inspiring comics, movies, music, literature, etc. should our readers make sure they don’t miss?
YTPM: I have this one book I really love and that I go back to often. It’s a collection of tales that inspired a lot of my own reflection about the relationship between urban and natural spaces. It’s very poetic and the author illustrated his stories with magnificent paintings. It’s called Tales from the Inner City by Shaun Tan. Also, I’m currently reading a fascinating book called Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer. The author is a botanist member of the Citizen Potawatomi Nation, and in each chapter of the book she tells an anecdote revolving around a different plant. It raises questions about our relationship to nature and of course colonization. It’s beautifully written and very informative.
DCMP: If we’re going with something directly related to what we talk about in Khiêm, I’d suggest everyone to pick up An Honorable Exit by Éric Vuillard. It’s one of my favorite books and it really opened my eyes to the reality of French colonialism in Vietnam. It also helped me put a lot of things from our family’s story into a broader historical perspective. It’s also short and very easy to read!
CBY: Djibril and Yasmine, thank you the recommendations, and we're grateful for having you join us today. You've made me even more excited to see Quebec in September! For our audience to better know your work, please include any portfolio, publication, and social media links you’d like everyone to check out.
DCMP: My instagram is @djibril_MP
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