It was an honor for Comic Book Yeti to welcome Dr. Albert McLeod Asst. Prof. Elaine Mordoch to discuss Between the Pipes, available Sept. 10th, 2024 through HighWater Press. Interviews Editor, Andrew Irvin, explores the intersection of themes with these comic creators and their many decades of experience in the public health and well-being of their fellow Manitobans!
COMIC BOOK YETI: Welcome to the Yeti Cave, Albert and Elaine. How’s everything been going up in Manitoba this summer?
ALBERT MCLEOD: Spent two weeks at Clearwater Lake near The Pas.
CBY: Sounds beautiful! Starting at the end, Between the Pipes offers a very helpful afterword which contextualizes the story and makes note of how the two of you met. Can you share a bit about how your collaborators; Sonya Ballantyne, Alice RL, and Kielamel Sibal became involved in this project? How’d everyone else meet, and when did the idea for this project initially form?
AM: After the script was submitted to the publisher, Sonya was hired to review it from the perspective of a 2Spirit youth. Alice and Kielamel were hired with the support of the publisher. Note: After the onset of the COVID-19 pandemic in March 2020, all our meetings were held online.
ELAINE MORDOCH: Around 2017, Albert and I met at a Winnipeg Suicide Prevention Network event where Albert noted that there are few resources for 2S youth, even though they are at risk for mental health problems, such as depression, suicidal ideation, and are marginalized in society. Our idea for the project developed in stages, with data from the two research studies we conducted and within Albert’s years of lived experience and work as an advocate. The research participants (Two Spirit Elders, Two Spirit youth and Two Spirit parents) unanimously stated that they wanted an Indigenous artist to illustrate the story. We advised HighWater Press that we needed to honour this request. We examined the art of several Indigenous artists, and we agreed that Alice’s work was the best fit for our story. We did not actually meet Alice until they were hired. Sonia Ballantyne was introduced to us by the HighWater team, and I have never met the letterer, Kielamal Sibal.
CBY: That's a testament to how collaboration can take place amongst a group upon first engagement with each other, and it's encouraging to see what resulted from the effort. Now, since Alice isn’t here to speak in greater detail about the art, can you both comment on the collaborative process of getting the look you wanted for the comic? I was curious about the coloring methods, in particular, as there’s a lot of expressive pattern and hue work done, particularly in washes throughout the backgrounds, which don’t necessarily adhere to the same line quality used with the characters - what sort of specificity did you, as writers, convey to Alice for the art, and what was entirely of her own design?
AM: We wanted the graphic novel to emphasize that reconnecting to Indigenous traditions, philosophies, landscapes, and ecosystems are ways to finding healing, knowledge, and safety. Alice’s washes establish an emotional perspective for the various internal and external spaces throughout the novel.
EM: There was a lot of back and forth dialogue when Alice sent first drafts of work at important stages of character and story development. We had a virtual discussion with examples of various ideas that were generally passed on to the artist through the HighWater team. Regarding colours – Alice would be best to answer that question on technique. Ultimately, Alice presented what they thought we were conveying to them. From my perspective, if we felt an idea was not captured in depth or with the intent that we had proposed, we kept working at details and explaining our intent. For example, If we thought a scene did not portray the mood we envisioned for the character, we kept thinking how to depict it more accurately. Sometimes that was captured in use of changed colour, which Alice created, to set the tone/mood.
CBY: I really loved this story for its distinct positional value - the dual focus of hockey culture (which is distinctly Canadian) and the broader attunement with community and surroundings. Were there any subtle nods in the art or story to anchor the story in its place that might slip by someone who isn’t from the Winnipeg area or Manitoba more broadly?
AM: Winnipeg is in Treaty 1 Territory (1871) the first of 11 treaties made in Western Canada. It is also the homeland of the Red River Metis and at the confluence of the Red and Assiniboine rivers. Winnipeg has an Indigenous population of 102,000 (2021) and is a centre for decolonization and reconciliation. The 2Spirit name was introduced near Winnipeg in 1990 and the 2Spirit Manitoba Inc. group has been a leader in 2S/Indigenous LGBTQI+ liberation, regionally, nationally, and internationally since 1986. Hockey is a popular sport in Indigenous communities, it was first documented being played by Indigenous women (shinny) in the early 1800s (Alexander the Younger). Youth empowerment and rites of passage are decolonization strategies throughout Indigenous organizations in Winnipeg. The reclamation of Indigenous languages, ceremonies, traditions, healing knowledge, and philosophy are inherent in programming for youth, ex. smudging, canoeing, Spirit Naming, sweat lodge, etc. There has also been support from Indigenous political groups (First Nation and Metis) and community organizations for 2SLGBTQI+ Pride events and related activities.
EM: Yes, I would say a few. Chase’s home is typical of houses in central Winnipeg being modest and tidy. The look of the house is like houses around the central WPG. hospital. Also, the river flowing through the city (we actually have two rivers doing so) encourages aspects of wildlife to be close—so if you pay attention, you can see eagles in the city, otters, beavers, fish, deer, ducks, geese, by the river.
CBY: Thank you for bringing us that much closer to the world in which this story takes place. Another element I enjoyed is the prevalence of wildlife, with a variety of animal motifs recurring throughout the story. They enrich the landscape of the story, but don’t always interact with the characters. I know there are important cultural associations made by various First Nations communities with animals as motifs with deeper narrative or rhetorical significance. While there’s a plot device involving a bear that I don’t want to spoil further, did you have other species scripted in with specific meaning beyond what the imagery alone may convey?
AM: The Ojibwe clan system (seen in the illustration to the right) includes iconic animal representations, such as the bear and the eagle, that function as connectors to the spiritual realm. The eagle feather that Chance receives represents the truth of Indigenous spirituality and belief systems. Chase’s fear and anxiety cause him to question his place in the world. These anxieties about gender identity and sexual orientation can lead youth to depression, isolation, suicidal ideation, and completed suicides. In this case, the spirit represented by the eagle, reminds Chase that he is a sacred creation of the universe. Historically, Indigenous people did not discriminate against 2SLGBTQI+ people because they were seen as intentional animate creations of the universe.
EM: Albert is best to speak here.
CBY: That is all really useful context to have, as this story deals with issues of both gender and sexuality. With a protagonist trying to navigate feelings that conflict with societal messaging, there are some very familiar scenes for any young person questioning their place in the social landscape and how they fit within. More specifically, the concept of two-spirit individuals is also raised, and while I’ve got a working understanding of the cultural role these individuals have historically held in cultures that don’t operate on gender binary systems, can you unpack for our readers the distinctions worth making from more broadly publicized or platformed concepts of non-binary gender or bisexuality, and how it sits distinctly from these identifiers?
AM: The Euro-Christian binary gender is an artificial social construct devised by colonizers to disrupt Indigenous cultures, philosophies, and governance structures. Indigenous world views are more complex and sophisticated than that of colonial states. The National Inquiry into Murdered and Missing Women and Girls identified thirty-two 2Spirit specific Calls for Justice in its final report (2019). The late Roger Roulette (Ojibwe Language Specialist) said that a primary Indigenous imperative is to understand that each child born has a purpose, a role, a destiny, and possesses a divine gift. As such, parents, siblings, extended family members did not critique the existence of 2SLGBTQI+ people in their families and communities. It was a social taboo to interfere with another’s journey of life. The impact of residential and day schools erased this knowledge when communities were forcefully converted to Christian beliefs. Despite this, there are words in over 150 American Indigenous languages that describe 2SLGBTQI+ people. This informs us there was a different and inclusive attitude toward gender identity and sexuality prior to European contact.
EM: Albert’s opinion will be the most informed. My understanding is that Two Spirit people are Indigenous people who may have a male and female spirit in their body and identify as gender variant from the binary colonial interpretation of gender. The term is reported to have originated in Winnipeg. It is not meant to replace other Indigenous words that refer to nonbinary sexual orientations. It is associated with an understanding of the historical roles Two Spirit people fulfilled in communities.
CBY: Between the Pipes is a great publication to help foster this conversation around understanding and appreciating the diverse ontologies from which people may emerge, and there's a broader discussion around restorative justice to safeguard this diversity of human understanding that I encourage our readers to explore beyond this interview. Releasing on Sept. 10th, 2024, can you tell us a bit about the process of working with HighWater Press to prepare this for publication? David A. Robertson recently stopped by to discuss The Reckoner Rises series, released through the same publisher. Learning through Zg Stories about the range of First Nations creative work at HighWater Press has been really exciting. What was your path towards finding a home with HighWater Press for this book?
AM: Elaine likely has a better account of our history with HWP. I did write the first script of the story.
EM: We were aware that HighWater Press published cutting edge thought-provoking Indigenous stories that challenge colonial narratives. Our story, based on the lived experiences gathered in our research data, could be effectively disseminated to youth through a graphic novel. We believed the novel could be used for educational purposes to discuss youth experiences of contemporary issues of gender and sexual identity. We knew HighWater aimed to oppose the societal prejudices and stereotypes that still exist from colonialism. Thus, we saw it as a good fit for our work.
CBY: Absolutely! Chase, the protagonist, finds navigating his relationships throughout the story to be both a source of conflict and support. There are content warnings for issues of homophobia and toxic masculinity, and an afterword with some expository material to better help young readers understand and contextualize the topics covered in the story. What sort of relationships and experiences in your lives have you drawn upon?
AM: The power to conform to the binary gender ideal and heteronormativity is a pressure that many junior high and high school students experience in North America. For myself, my grandmother, who was a Cree woman born in 1897, was my mentor because she maintained her authentic self throughout her life, (she died in 1990 at the age of 93). Attending high school in The Pas, I was pressured to conform to being straight, which I resisted and finally quit school in 1971. However, I trusted my instincts and the example of my grandmother that I didn’t need to conform to others’ expectations. My journey to Brandon, Vancouver, and finally Winnipeg involved learning about my Indigenous and Scottish ancestry, and Indigenous traditions, languages, ceremonies, healing, and life philosophies. Many elements in the graphic novel are based on real-life experiences told to me by others (the eagle feather falling) as well as stories from dreams that people have shared with me (the bear). The novel is an homage to my childhood friends who committed suicide because they could not make it out of the chaos of the 1960-1980’s.
EM: I think back to areas of conflict in my life where it was confusing to figure out who could help me and sometimes even to figure out I needed help! I think of some mentors, who likely never knew they were mentors to me, i.e. my grade one teacher, whose name and face I still remember. When you feel different from others, for whatever reason, you may be very sensitive to your surroundings and being included and treated respectfully is extremely important. I have also met some beautiful kind people who identify as 2SLGBTQ+.
CBY: Hopefully this story helps youth of this generation realize there are other avenues of recourse, and there's always hope to find community and support on their paths as their genuine selves. With a number of collaborators involved in this story, I’m sure you all have a variety of other pursuits and projects underway. As I know you’re both public health professionals with a range of community and professional considerations beyond Between the Pipes, so can you both share some more of your ongoing work you’d like our audience to know about?
AM:
I am a member of Team Thunderhead that designed the 2SLGBTQI+ National Monument that will open in Ottawa in the summer of 2025. https://www.thunderheadmonument.ca/
A member of the 2Spirit Archives collection at the University of Winnipeg. https://archives.uwinnipeg.ca/our-collections/two-spirit-archives.html
Advisor for the 2Spirit exhibit at the Canadian Museum for Human Rights.
Board member of the Urban Shaman Gallery.
Participant in the Annual International 2Spirit Gathering, which is in its 37th year and will be held in Oklahoma, US. https://antss.co/37th-annual-international-two-spirit-gathering/
EM: I am interested in university students’ mental health issues and campus wide mental health promotion. Currently, with Shelley Marchinko and Pat Pruden, we co-ordinate a project Connecting – One Conversation at a Time with the goal of promoting/sustaining student mental health through various initiatives.
Volunteer work – Circles of Reconciliation
“The aim of Circles for Reconciliation is to establish trusting, meaningful relationships between Indigenous and non-Indigenous peoples as part of the 94 Calls to Action from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC).” https://circlesforreconciliation.ca/
CBY: For your audience, what sort of creative principles might you like to further discuss that you didn’t have room to convey in the final pages of the comic? Not every comic includes the words of support for vulnerable members of First Nations communities, and I want to make sure we make space to further discuss - to whatever extent you’ve got time to share - the mental health issues you raise, the intergenerational trauma in which they are rooted, and what you see as the most viable paths towards using comics and creative engagement alongside counseling and other efforts to foster community growth?
AM: 2Spirit people have inalienable and inherent rights, Treaty-Metis-Inuit rights, civil rights, constitutional rights, and universal rights. They have the right to graduate from junior high, high schools, colleges, and universities and they have the right to a career. As such we have established seven 2Spirit non-profit organizations across Canada and advocated for FNMI organizations to establish 2Spirit councils. 2Spirit people should be free to live without carrying the colonial burden of gender based violence, homophobia and transphobia, and historic and intergenerational trauma.
EM: Creative principles I think it is important to reflect periodically on why the story you are creating needs to be made visible. Our story is based on research participants’ lived experiences and Albert’s experiences of living as a Two Spirit person in a heterosexual world. I feel we have a commitment to our research participants to create an authentic story and acknowledge their contribution to that story. As the novel is distributed and as we have opportunities to discuss this work, for myself, it is important to stay connected to the rationale for telling the story. There are many stories to be told to promote an inclusive society.
Mental health issues
1. 2SLGBTQI+ people may face systemic racism against Indigenous people, homophobia within the general society, stigmatization from some Indigenous communities, from their families and violence within Canadian society (Reclaiming Power and Place: Final Report of Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women and Girls, 2019). In the World Psychiatry journal, Drescher (June, 2024) describes the marginalization and exclusion that (LGBTQ)* people may face in their families, communities and in the wider world and that it is these experiences of “minority stress” that create mental stress.
(*acronym used in the article)
2. Providing trauma-informed care to 2SLGBTQ+ patients (Native Women’s Association of Canada) no date. LGBTQ+ youth have elevated rates of low self-esteem, depression, anxiety and substance use, and sexual violence.
Viable paths towards using comics and creative engagement
I think multiple ways (comics, graphic novels, plays, social media messages) to get information out is important. One of our research assistants mentioned comics to us as an easy, interesting read and an effective way to engage youth. We started down this path open to suggestions! Creative engagement – is important – giving people an opportunity to present their views.
CBY: Thank you both so much for providing all these additional resources for readers today. Beyond Between the Pipes, what unrelated comics and other media (films, music, art, literature, etc.) have been keeping your attention lately? What work has been inspiring you that you think our readers should check out after Between the Pipes?
AM: The 2Spirit Archives at the University of Winnipeg and the graphic novel series, Surviving the City, by Tasha Spillett. (https://tashaspillett.com)
As well, I have a presentation called, 2Spirits go to Hollywood, which is retrospective on media and drag personas and the involvement of Indigenous and 2Spirit people in movie making.
EM: 1. Hiromi Goto Xann Xu (2021) Shadow Life- when death comes too soon, fight dirty.
2. Richard Wagamese (2008) One Native Life (I periodically reread this book).
3. Margarita Engle (2010) The Firefly Letters: A Suffragette’s Journey to Cuba.
4. Niigaan Sinclair (2024) Winipex: Visions of Canada from an Indigenous Centre.
5. Mary Henley Rubio & Elizabeth Hillman Waterson (1987) The Complete Journals of L.M. Montgomery The PEI Years, 1889 – 1900.
CBY: So many new and pertinent pieces of work to explore! Albert and Elaine, thanks for making time to discuss Between the Pipes today. If you’ve got additional portfolio, publication, and social media links to share with our audience, now is the time!
EM: Thanks for your interest. (Nothing additional to add.)
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